VRLO INTERESANTAN INTERVJU SA DRAGUTINOM ŠAFARIĆEM, Lasa Šukilo, Zagreb

Ovaj intervju je preveden na engleski. Za one koji znaju engleski tekst se nalazi ispod hrvatskog teksta. Hvala.

Intervju sa Dragutinom Šafarićem

HRVAT U SLOVENIJI: DRAGUTIN ŠAFARIĆ

Lasa Šukilo, Zagreb

Pitanje: Kad bi vas netko upitao g. Šafariću, tko ste Vi, što biste mu odgovorili?

Odgovor:

Rekao bih mu da sam sedmo dijete svojih roditelja: majke Line Dodlek i oca Ivana Šafarića. Rođen sam doma (u Europi!) u Međimurju, u selu Belici poznatoj po „beličkom kalamperu“! Vrijeme mog rođenja je 1940. godina. Bila je tada Kraljevina Jugoslavije, malo kasnije pak je Međimurje došlo pod mađarsku okupaciju.

Sa 16 godina odlazim s ocem prema Celju, gdje postajem šegrt zidarskog zanata. Odmah po završetku zanata upisujem se u večernju tehničku građevinsku školu. Iste jeseni, s 19 godina, morao sam podnijeti drugu tešku operaciju na crijevima. Dijagnoza je bila: „ILEUS“. Slomljen na svim linijama, prekidam školu, pa i zaposlenje. U 23.-toj godini odlazim na odsluženje vojnih obaveza, gdje mi se zdravlje opet slama te poslije 14 mjeseca služenja domovini napuštam vojarnu prvi put (!), ali vidi vraga, opet bez zaposlenja, jer sam postao nesposoban za teške fizičke poslove.

Uspijevam, svejedno, završiti srednju tehničku školu u dobi od 30 godina. Zapošljavam se u birou građevinskog projektiranja u Trbovlju, a u 1980. g. s čitavom obitelji selim se u Velenje. Nakon donošenja zakona, koji daje mogućnost za privatno projektiranje, krajem 1985. g., donosim odluku o prijelazu na samostalni rad. Tako sve do 2002. g. – do moga umirovljenja.

Pitanje: Stalno živite u Sloveniji. Od kada? Što Vas je ovamo dovelo?

Odgovor:

Spomenuo sam već. Bilo je to 1956. g. Tada me je otac odveo sa sobom prema Celju „na put s kartom u jednom smjeru“. Volim svoju izreku: “ja sam agrarna izbjeglica“. Moje oči sada, još uvijek, lijepo vide kako piše: “2010.” godina. Ništa nije kod mene stalo. Sve je u punom pogonu, još jače nego ikada prije.

Pitanje: Gdje ste prije toga živjeli? U Hrvatskoj?

Odgovor:

U Međimurju. To je moja domovina. Tu je rođen 1876. g. moj deda Đura po ocu, 1882. g. bakica Marija, po majci deda Martin (?) i 1890. baka Barbara. Deda Đura je preživio prvi svjetski rat na ruskom frontu, dok je deda po majci Martin bio prostrijeljen sa strojnicom negdje kod Krakova.

Da, kao šesto živo dijete naših roditelja, osim sestre Marije, otišao sam na zapad. Da, svi, baš svi, jedno za drugim, odlazili smo kao „fizičari“ prema zapadu, “v obljubljeno Deželicu” u Sloveniju.

Pitanje: Čujem da ste nemiran čovjek. Stalno nešto istražujete. Čime se zapravo bavite? Profesionalno.

Odgovor:

Nije da sam nemiran, ja sam borben. Zato i jesam tu gdje jesam – udaram po nepravdi. Mislim da sam najprije istraživao samoga sebe: tko sam i gdje sam? Zatim: tko su drugi i zašto su oni to što jesu? Što to njima pogoduje? Zar moram uvijek biti nešto manji od njih? Često sam se pitao i konačno odlučio iskoristiti ono što mi je Bog dao na dar – pamet!

Zbog straha, kako će moje tijelo podnositi građevinske poslove po mrazu, kad me stignu godine, sve sam žrtvovao. Promijenio sam radno mjesto s boljom strukom, te ostatak svojeg rada do mirovine proveo u toplim zaštićenim radnim prostorijama, kao projektant s državnom licencom za samostalni rad. Iza sebe imam izrađenih preko 400 nacrta, od kojih tri za stambene blokove.

Bogato iskustvo iz građevinarstva mi još uvijek služi za dodatnu zaradu. Zajedno s obadvije kćeri, koje su isto građevinarke, imam vlastiti biro od 1986. godine. U njemu izrađujem nacrte.

Poslije završene srednje tehničke škole 1970. g. iste sam godine upisao Višu tehničku školu u Mariboru, gdje sam odustao poslije 18 uspješno položenih ispita. Krenuo sam u samostalnu djelatnost, radio danju i noću.

Starija kći je krenula mojim športskim putem. Streljaštvo. Bilo je sve manje vremena za moj studij. Ali je sve to imalo i svoju ljepotu. Dva slovenska rekorda starije kćeri. Druga pak kći bila je četiri puta slovenska prvakinja. Ja sam se sa svoje strane “dočepao” dva naslova na državnim natjecanjima u Jugoslaviji.

Baveći se športovima, kao što su streljaštvo, ronjenje, pa donekle i speleologijom, mnogo više vožnjom motociklom, kao mali projektant prošao sam širom svijeta, bio sam na svakojakim terenima, u raznim krajevima.

Negdje 1981-82. godine počeo je veliki zaokret u mojem upoznavanju nove okoline u koju sam se doselio, gdje sam se kretao i živio. To je osnovno zemljopisno područje na pravcu Celje – Velenje – Slovenj Gradec. Na pola puta je Gornji Dolič. To je mjesto masovnog pokolja Hrvata u svibnju 1945. g., pokolja moga naroda s imenom Hrvati. „Samo“ oko 8 tisuća ubijenih!

Krenem u Zagreb 1996. g. do Državnog saborskog povjerenstva za popis žrtava. Tražim informacije za događaje u Gornjem Doliču? Nemaju ništa. Nikakva odgovora mi nisu mogli dati. Opet sam morao poći osobno u dugotrajno prikupljanje podataka po knjigama i kod ljudi. Podatci su ukazivali na nove informacije, zahtijevali su široka istraživanja i mnogo putovanja. Osvojen je novi položaj s mnogo podataka. Moralo se krenuti dalje. Pokrenuo sam jedinstvenu internetsku stranicu o žrtvama komunističkih zločina ili genocida.

Postavio sam 1997. g. Na internetu veliku kartu s ucrtanim grobnicama samo za područje Slovenije. Ima oko 800 masovnih grobnica. To je bila znanstvena fantastika u vremenu, kada se je tek pomalo smjelo javno govoriti o „krvavoj borbi za oslobođenje naroda – i čovjeka“. Državno slovensko povjerenstvo do sada je već evidentiralo preko 600 masovnih grobnica.

Kao projektant koristio sam se računalom od 1986. g. Primjenjujući znanje i mnoge karte u papiru, te „interaktivne“ elektroničke podloge, stvorio sam svoju kartu grobnica. Posjedujem preko 3.000 karata. Uz to koristeći se još i kvalitetnim svjetskim elektronskim atlasima, doživio sam da se je do sada na mojoj www stranici i na Google atlasu našlo oko 7.500 raznih fotografija, s kojima potvrđujem, i dokazujem, gdje su mjesta zločina. Dakako, tamo je, osim mojih, također i nešto lijepih slika mojih dragih prijatelja.

Pitanje: Imate li neki hoby?

Odgovor:

Hoby? Uz projektantski posao ostalo je mjesta samo za ovo malo prije opisano istraživanje žrtava. Prije dvadeset godina imao sam više puta oštar dijalog s lokalnim povjesničarima. Za njih je povijest završila 9. svibnja 1945. g. kapitulacijom osovinskih snaga. Mjesto te kapitulacije bilo je ovdje, od mene udaljeno samo koji kilometar u malom mjestu Topolšica. Poslije toga za partizansko – antifašističke povjesničare je ostalo mjesta samo za veliko slavlje revolucije i podizanje nebrojenih spomenika. Kada izlazim iz našeg nebodera vidim spomenik visok 9,70 m. Valjda znate tko se još uvijek slavi u Nebesa. Tito i Partija!

Pitanje: Oženjeni ste. Kako na Vaš “pogon” gleda supruga?

Odgovor:

Dok se nešto radi za zaradu, dobro je. Veselo. Ostalo tajim kao „muška posla!.

Pitanje: Je li Vam supruga Slovenka? Ili ste po bračnu družicu morali preko Sutle?

Odgovor:

Nije. Njeni su korijeni preko Sutle, ali s ove strane. Zapravo, čak i preko Soče. Puno dalje, sve do Udina u Italiji, otkud je došao njezin djed Peter Andrini (rođen 1881. g.) u rudarski kraj Trbovlja. Tako supruga ima djevojačko ime Andrini. Takvih je prezimena samo nekoliko u Sloveniji.

Pitanje: Održavate li i dalje sveze s Hrvatskom? Ili ste na njih zaboravili?

Odgovor:

Poslije majčine i očeve smrti, Bog im dao pokoj, zadržao sam svoj dio nasljedstva, jednu livadu i još 1/14 dio „grunta“, ne dajući nikome pravo na prodaju. Neka to ostane „moja gruda zemlje“, tamo u Međimurju. U Hrvatskoj! Imam svoj izvod iz gruntovnice. To je to!

Pitanje: Mislite li na njih i na njihove grobove. Posebno na one u Sloveniji koji potječu iz 1945.?

Odgovor:

Bilo je to jednom kasno noću. U Belici. Napuštajući lokal i nakon rastanka s prijateljima, otišao sam sam na polje, do groblja, gdje su mi pokopani roditelji i mnogi moji rođaci. Više se bojim živih nego mrtvih. Poznajem više stotina grobnih lokacija po Sloveniji. Izbjegavao sam susret sa „smrću“. Ove godine, 20. srpnja, u šumi, koju vidim s prozora, bio sam nazočan kod sondiranja odnosno kod kopanja bagerom po terenu. Tek popodne na jednoj lokaciji, kod podizanja zemlje s bagerom, pojavila se duga nožna kost, a kasnije još i smrskana lubanja. Tog trenutka jedino sam ja imao u rukama fotoaparat. Žrtava je tu između 50 i 200, tko to zna koliko? Dva dana kasnije, gledam s prozora brežuljak na Gorici. Kopaju jamu, službeno bilježe, da bi na tom mjestu moglo biti pet grobova. Prijatelj – očevidac kaže 15!!! Državno povjerenstvo pak s druge strane, za općinu Šoštanj, navodi da ima sakupljene podatke za oko 4.000 žrtava, najviše njemačkih zarobljenih vojnika iz svibnja 1945. g.

Pitanje: Vi živite, zapravo, u Europskoj Uniji. Osjećate li to?

Odgovor:

Neke životne promjene, da. Na bolje? Ma, ne. Nikako. Prije bih rekao na gore, nego li na bolje. Potrebne su još godine, da se društveni sustav, znamo koji i kakav, da se taj društveni sustav preustroji. Razdoblje za prilagođavanje regulative. Kao projektant, ipak moram priznati, zbilja primjećujem mnoga dotjeravanja nekada nesređenih ili međusobno neusklađenih zakona i drugih propisa. Uvodi se postupno red, a ne više da svatko stvara neke odredbe po svom osobnom stilu i potrebi.

Pitanje: Jeste li, kao Hrvat, ugroženi, jeste li diskriminirani ovdje u Sloveniji, u Europskoj Uniji?

Odgovor:

Diskriminacija je uvijek postojala i još će je biti. Nije u pitanju Europska unija, niti je u pitanju posebno podrijetlo, to što si Hrvat, već postoje neke druge „tajne“ sile, koje djeluju općenito u svijetu. Međusobno poznavanje i druženje „došljaka“, među koje spadam i ja (!), pomaže otkriti mnoge stvari, za koje znamo, da se čak smišljeno i planski pojavljuju. To su dva svijeta, koji se nikada ne će moći „izgladiti“ do neprimjetna dodira.

Pitanje: Želimo Vas otvoreno zapitati: progone li Vas u Sloveniji?

Odgovor:

Na mnogo načina se to može činiti čovjeku – ako je takva nakana. Spomenuo sam svoju operaciju na crijevima – Ileus. Za građevinskog radnika potrebno je znati, kako je to biti na otvorenom gradilištu u hladnom prosincu.

Hospitaliziran sam bio u celjskoj bolnici od 10.12.1959. g. Do 21.12.1959. g. Samo 11 dana boravka u bolnici. Samo jedan tjedan „bolovanja“ i hajdemo na hladno zimsko gradilište, 27.12.1959. g. To će biti samo dva tjedna poslije otvaranja mojeg tijela – trbuha s 11 šavova. Da bi sačuvao zdravlje, morao sam prekinuti radni odnos s 31.03.1960. g. pa do 19.09.1960. g. Kad mi se zdravstveno stanje poboljšalo počeo sam opet raditi, naravno, u istom poduzeću. Posjedujem isprave koje to potvrđuju. Radeći u Ljubljani 1963. g., vojnički liječnički pregled utvrđuje, da sam sposoban za JNA i da mogu služiti voljenom narodu i kroz nekoliko dana ja sam već „pješadinac“ u Puli. Poslije 14 mjeseca vojno-liječničkog natezanja odlazim iz JNA bolestan i nesposoban za rad. U istom poduzeću se ne mogu zaposliti, jer mi liječnici ne žele izdati pozitivan dokument za moj fizički posao. Napuštam Deželicu i odlazim živjeti kod roditelja u Međimurje, da tamo ozdravim i da se onda opet „vratim“ na posao. Bog mi je pomogao, pa se tako to i zbilo.

Imao sam završenu zanatsku školu u Ljubljani, prvu godinu večernje tehničke škole u Celju prije odlaska u JNA. Ipak, sve mi to nije bilo dovoljno za ponovni upis u večernju tehničku školu u Ljubljani. Za upis je bio uvjet završena osnovna škola, a ja sam imao samo 6 razreda. Ono drugo ne vrijedi niti pri upisu za

partizanskog ravnatelja. Završim ja svejedno, unatoč svemu tome, i onu osnovnu dopisnu školu, pa i večernju tehničku školu u Ljubljani, te tako krenem u „topliji“ radnički život.

Da malo preskočim ovu svoju kroniku. Za vrijeme domovinskog rata počeo sam ponešto objavljivati o svojim istraživanjima, aktivno sam se uključio u rad Slovenskog društva za istraživanje prikrivenih grobova. Mnogo sam se kretao, sakupljao podatke. Kod Maribora 1999. g. na izgradnji cestovne zaobilaznice u Bohovi – Tezno, mi aktivisti za istraživanje tragova žrtava, tražili smo da se tamo radovi zaustave i da se izvrši sondiranje terena. Tada je u Bohovi na dužini 80 m šumskog dijela ekshumirano 1.179 žrtava ili 17 kostura na tekući metar u tenkovskom rovu. Kanal kod Teznog dužine preko 2.000 m bi mogao sadržati i oko 40 hiljada žrtava.

Bilo je to vrijeme sukobljavanja s vlašću. Naravno, vršila se tobože samo prometna kontrola. Gdje? U neposrednoj blizini mojeg posla i stanovanja u Velenju. Poslije deset godina još uvijek imam velike izdatke u svezi s tim policijskim postupcima. Samo oni znaju za što bih ja trebao biti kriv.

Pitanje: Da. Hrvatska bi uskoro također trebala ući u Europsku Uniju. Za koga je to dobro? Za Europsku Uniju? Za Hrvatsku?

Odgovor:

Svaka stvar ima dobre i loše strane. Kada netko nešto dobiva tada netko drugi nešto daje. Hrvatska nacionalna tragedija je u tome, što su se vlastodršci natjecali, tko će više pokrasti svoj narod (posljedično kroz donošenje takovih zakona!), i tko će se više prignuti tuđincu. Sad su uhićenja u tijeku. Sramota je to za vlast, a ne za pojedinca ili čak za okrivljenog.

Pitanje: Što zapravo mislite o Europskoj Uniji?

Odgovor:

Povijest nas uči, da su se sva velika carstva raspadala – iznutra. Bili (još) živi, pa vidjeli!?

Pitanje: Nas zanima, posebno, položaj i uloga malih naroda u zajednici poput Europske Unije. Što mislite o tome?

Odgovor:

Nisu baš u pitanju mali ili veliki narodi. Kapital je gospodar, on sve pokreće i o svemu odlučuje.

Pitanje: Smatrate li da bi ulazak Hrvatske u Europsku Uniju trebao dovesti do bolje suradnje Hrvata i Slovenaca? U čemu bi se to moglo ogledati?

Odgovor:

Neki zahtjevi slovenske politike za ispunjavanje uvjeta za pristup ili ulazak Hrvatske u EU su bili i jesu opravdani, osobno bi i sam postavljao neke uvjete. Poznajući obadvije ove države dolazim do nekih drugih spoznaja, do zaključaka koji me vode do briga s kojima se susreće slovensko gospodarstvu. Otvaranje granice prema Hrvatskoj, pa možda i dalje, prema Bosni, slobodno kretanje roba, prometa, a najviše radne snage, jedinstvena valuta, sve to već sada ruši pojam o blagostanju u Sloveniji kao europskoj državi. Nažalost veliki broj ljudi žive slabije, nego koju godinu prije. Kada stalno zaposlen radnik ne može podići niti kredit za kupnju televizora, jer ima premali dohodak, što će mu onda „šuplja“ Europa, koja sve manje mari za radnog čovjeka.

Pitanje:Oko Ljubljane je partizanski put? Nerijetko naiđe se na partizanski spomenik. Nu, u Ljubljani nema više Titove avenije. Sad je to Slovenska i Dunajska (Bečka) cesta. Kako to tumačite?

Odgovor:

Davne 1959. g. i ja sam imao maratonski „pohod ob žici okupirane Ljubljane“. Mislim da je to obično bilo 9. svibnja. Taj dan se slavi u Europi kao dan pobjede nad fašizmom. Sada mi se čini i kao dan pobjede nad komunizmom. Mnogi, pa i ja sam, pridonijeli su toj promjeni. Nažalost u Velenju je još sve po starom – imamo „Titov trg“ s najvećim njegovim spomenikom na svijetu.

Pitanje: Kod Vas u Velenju?

Odgovor:

Spomenik Titu još uvijek prkosi onim masovnim stratištima i grobnicama kojih u Deželici ima preko tisuću. Istodobno, njegov – Titov – pogled uperen je točno prema Teznom, gdje je mjesto najvećeg pokolja u Jugoslaviji. Imamo ovdje još i Grašku goru. Stvarno, tu je svake godine masovno okupljanje naroda, pa i partizana u punoj vojnoj opremi.

Pitanje: Onda i sada?

Odgovor:

Punih trideset godina živim u Velenju. Kad pogledam, oko mene se je ovdje nešto mijenjalo, ali ne vidim promjena u srcu grada i ljudi. Sve je nekako „bezživotno“ i puno razočaranja.

Pitanje: Na kraju nešto krajnje osobno: kad ćete doma? Ili ste već doma?

Odgovor:

Jednom me carinik zapita: gdje sam bio? Bio sam doma. Drugo pitanje: kuda idem? Pa idem doma! Tako sam prešao tu granicu iz Međimurja za Sloveniju bez posljedica.

Dragutin – Za domovinu spreman!

http://safaric-safaric.si/

 English

Intervien

HRVAT U SLOVENIJI: DRAGUTIN ŠAFARIĆ

Lasa Šukilo, Zagreb

Question: If someone were to ask you, Mr. Šafarić, who you are, how would you respond?

Answer:

I would tell him that I was the seventh child of my parents: mother Lina Dodlek and father Ivan Šafarić. I was born at home (in Europe!) in Međimurje, in the village Belica, known by its „Belički kalamper“ (the first monument of the potato in Europe)! The year of my birth is 1940. It was the time of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, and later Međimurje was occupied by the Hungarians.

When I was 16 years old, I went with my father to Celje, where I became an apprentice mason. Right after I finished my apprenticeship, I enrolled in the evening techical architectural school.

That same fall, when I was 19, I had to endure a second heavy operation on my intestines – the diagnosis was. „ILEUS“. I was mentally broken, I left school, and my employement. When I was 23 I went to serve the army, where my health got worse again, so after 14 months of serving my country, I left the military base for the first time (!), but wouldn’t you know, I was unemployed again, because I became uncapable to do heavy physical jobs.

I managed, however, to finish technical high school at the age of 30. I got a job at the architectural projecting bureau in Trbovlje, and in 1980 with my whole family I moved to Velenje. After the law, which gives the possibility for private projecting, was brought, at the end of 1985, I made a decision to start my own business. And it lasted until 2002 – and my retirement.

Question: You always live in Slovenia. Since when? What brought you here?

Answer:

I have mentioned it already. It was in 1956. My father took me with him to Celje, „on a journey with a one way ticket“. I like my own saying: „I am an agricultural refugee“. My eyes can now, still clearly see, the writings: “year 2010“. Nothing stopped for me. Everything is still moving, even more than before.

Question: Where did you live before? In Croatia?

Answer:

In Međimurje. That is my homeland. My grandfather by my father’s side, Đura, was born here in 1876, my grandmother Marija in 1882, my grandfather by my mother’s side, Martin (?) and my grandmother Barbara in 1890.

My grandfather Đura survived the First World War on the Russian front, while my grandfather by my mother’s side was shot by a machinegun somewhere near Krakow.

Yes, as the sixth living child of our parents, except my sister Marija, I went to the West. Yes, everyone, absolutely everyone, one after the other, were leaving as „physical workers“ towards the west, „in the beloved little land“ – in Slovenia.

Question: I heard that you are a restless man. You are always researching something. What exactly do you do? Professionally.

Answer:

It is not that I am restless, I am a fighter. It is the reason why I am here in the first place – I strike at injustice.

I think I first researched myself: who am I and where I am? Then: who are the others and why are they the way they are? What suits them? Do I need to be slightly less than them? I asked myself frequently and finally decided to use the gift which God has given me – my mind!

Because of fear, how will my body endure building jobs during the frost, and when I get older, I sacrificed everything. I changed my workplace with a better one, and I spent the rest of my working days in warm, protected work spaces, as a projector with a state permit for private work. I have made over 400 schemes, of those three for apartment blocks.

My rich experience in architecture is still bringing me an additional profit. Together with both of my daughters, who are also architects, I have my own bureau since 1986. In it I make schemes.

After I finished technical high school in 1970, I enrolled in the Higher technical school in Maribor the same year, where I dropped out after 18 successfully passed exams.

I started my own business, and worked day and night.

My older daughter followed my sports path. Shooting. There was less and less time for my studies. But all of that had its beauty. Two Slovenian records for my older daughter. My other daughter was the Slovenian champion four times. I managed, however, to „get my hands on“ two titles at state competitions in Yugoslavia.

By participating in different sports, such as shooting, diving, and a bit of speleology, much more on my motorbike, as a small projector, I travelled across the world, I went to all kinds of terrains, in different regions.

Somewhere around 1981-82 there was a big turn in my getting to know the new enviroment where I moved to, where I lived. It is the base geographical area between Celje, Velenje and Slovenj Gradec. Half way between is Gornji Doliĉ. It is the place of a mass slaughter of Croatians in May 1945, the slaughter of my people named Croatians. „Only“ around 8 thousand killed!

I went to Zagreb in 1996 to the State parliamental committee for a list of casualties. I asked for information about the events in Gornji Doliĉ. They had nothing. They couldn’t give me any answer. I had to again personally go and find facts in books and with people. The data pointed to new information, it asked for vast research and a lot of travelling. A new stand was taken with a lot of data. I had to move on. I started a unique internet website about the casualties of communist crimes and genocide.

I posted in 1997 a big map with marked graves only for the area of Slovenia. There is around 800 mass graves. It was science fiction in a time, when people just started to speak freely about the „bloody fight for freedom of the people – and man“. The Slovenian state committee until now has registered over 600 mass graves.

As a projector I have been using computers since 1986. Using my knowledge and many maps on paper, and „interactive“ electronic applications, I created my own map of the graves. I have in my possession over 3000 maps. Also using quality world electronic atlases, I lived to see that until now there is on my www site and Google Maps around 7500 different photographs, which I confirm and prove where the places of the crimes are. Of course, there are also several nice pictures from my dear friends, besides my own.

Question: Do you have any kind of hobby?

Answer:

Hobby? Being a projector, I have only a little spare time of which I use for the casualties research mentioned above. Twenty years ago I had a sharp dialogue with local historians more than once. For them history ended on the 9th of May, 1945 with the surrender of the Axis forces. The place of this surrender was here, only a few kilometers away from me, in a small place called Topolšica.

After that for partizan-antifascist historians, there is only enough space for the great celebration of the revolution and for building numerous monuments. When I leave our skyscraper, I can see a monument 9,70 m high. You must know who is still celebrated to the Heavens. Tito and the Party!

Question: You are married. How does your wife look at your „drive“?

Answer:

When there is an income, it’s alright. Cheerful. The rest I keep secret as „male business“.

Question: Is your wife a Slovenian? Or did you have to go get your spouse over the Sutla?

Answer:

No. Her roots are over the Sutla, but from this side. Actually, even over the Soĉa. Much further, all the way to Udine in Italy, from where her grandfather Peter Andrini came (born in 1881) in the mining town next to Trbovlje. That’s how my wife’s maiden name is Andrini. There are only a few last names like that in Slovenia.

Question: Do you still keep relations with Croatia? Or have you forgotten about them?

Answer:

After my mother’s and my father’s death, God rest their souls, I kept my part of the inheritance, one meadow and another 1/14 of the land, giving no one the right to sell. Let that stay „my piece of the land“, there in Međimurje. In Croatia! I have my certificate from the land registry. That’s it!

Question: About them and their graves. Especially about those in Slovenia from 1945?

Answer:

It happened once late at night. In Belica. I left the bar and after saying good bye to my friends, I went alone into the field, to the cemetary, where my parents and many of my relatives are buried. I am more afraid of the living, than of the dead.

I know more than a hundred grave locations in Slovenia. I avoided an ecounter with „death“. This year, on th 20th of July, in the woods, which I can see from my window, I was a witness of probing and digging with a dredger in the area. Not until the afternoon, at one location, a long leg bone appeared, and later a smashed skull. At that moment, I was the only one who had a camera in his hand. There is between 50 and 200 victims, who knows how many exactly? Two days later, I watched from my window a hill on Gorica. They are digging a ditch, making official notes, believing there could be five graves at that spot. A friend – an eyewitness says 15!!! The state committee for Šoštanj district, on the other hand, said that they collected data for around 4000 victims, mostly German prisoners of war from May 1945.

Question: You live, actually, in the European Union. Can you feel it?

Answer:

There are some life changes. For the worse? No. Not at all. I would say more changes, than better ones. More years are needed for the social system, and we know which one, to reorganize. The time period for regulation adjustment. As a projector, I must confess, I really do notice a lot of adjustments of former messy or mutual uncoordinated laws and other regulations. Gradually, order is being introduced, and it is no longer possible for someone to make some regulations according to their personal style and needs.

Question: Are you, as a Croat, endangered, or discriminated here in Slovenia, in the European Union?

Answer:

A discrimination has always existed and it always will. The European Union is not in question, nor any special background, such as being a Croat, but there are some other „secret“ forces, which are spreaded in the world in general. Mutual knowing and relations of the immigrants, such as myself (!), help reveal many things, for which we know that they appear planned and on purpose. Those are two worlds, which will never be able to adjust themselves completely.

Question: We will ask you directly: are you being pursued in Slovenia?

Answer:

There are many ways to pursue a man – if that is the plan. I have mentioned my intestinal operation – Ileus. For a construction worker it is neccessary to know how does it feel to be out in the open during a cold December.

I was hospitalized in Celje from the 10th of Decemeber, 1959 till the 21st of December, 1959. Only for eleven days. Only one week of „sick leave“ and then back to the cold winter construction site, on the 27th of December, 1959. That was only two weeks after a part of my body was cut open – my stomach with 11 stitches. In order to preserve my health, I was forced to quit my job on the 31st of March, 1960 till the 19th of September, 1960. When my health started to improve, I went back to work, of course, in the same company. I have documents in my possession which confirm this.

While I was working in Ljubljana in 1963, a military physical examination confirmed that I was capable to go to the army (JNA) and that I can serve my beloved people and a few days later I was already a soldier in the infantry in Pula. After 14 months of struggling with the military doctors, I left the JNA sick and incompetent for work. I couldn’t get a job in the same company, because the doctors wouldn’t give me a positive document for my physical work. I left my little land and went to live with my parents in Međimurje, in order to get better and then go back to work. With God’s help, it was so.

I had finished a craft school in Ljubljana, a first year of evening technical school in Celje before going to the JNA. However, all of that wasn’t enough for re-enrolling in evening technical school in Ljubljana. A condition for enrolment was finishing elementary school, and I had only 6 grades. The latter wasn’t worth anything. So, I finished, in spite of it all, a corresponding elementary school, the evening technical school in Ljubljana, and that’s how I started my „warmer“ working life.

Let me skip a bit of this chronicle of mine. During the Homeland War I started publishing pieces about my research, and I actively engaged in the work of the Slovenian society for researching hidden graves. I travelled a lot, collecting data. At Maribor in 1999, while they were building a bypass in Bohovo – Tezno, we activists for researching the remains of victims, asked them to cease the work so that we could probe the area. Then in Bohovo, in the length of 80 m of the woods, 1179 victims were exhumed or 17 skeletons per meter in a tank trench. The channel at Tezno, which is over 2000 m long, could hold up to 40 thousand victims.

It was a time of confrontations with the government. Of course, only so called traffic control was done. Where? Near my workplace and my home in Velenje. After ten years, I still have major expenses for those police procedures. Only they could know what am I supposed to be guilty for.

Question: Yes. Croatia should also join the European Union soon. For whom is that good? For the European Union? For Croatia?

Answer:

Each thing has its good and its bad sides. When someone is getting something, it means that someone else is giving something. The Croatian national tragedy is about the fact that leading men were competing who will rob his own people more (which was the consequence of bringing such laws!), and who will bend more for the foreigner. Now they are making some arrests. It is a shame for the government, and not for the individual or even accused person.

Question:How exactly do you feel about the European Union?

Answer:

History teaches us that all of the great empires fall apart – from the inside. We will live to see?!

Question: We are interested especially in the position and role of the small nations in a union such as the European Union? What do you feel about that?

Answer:

It is not about the small or big nations. The capital is the headmaster, he makes it all move around and decides about everything.

Question: Do you think that Croatians entering the European Union could lead to better cooperation between Croatians and Slovenians? What could it be seen from?

Answer:

Some demands of the Slovenian politics for satisfying the conditions for Croatian joining or entering the European Union are justified, I made some of the conditions myself. Considering that I know both states, I came to some conclusions which lead me to some problems that the Slovenian economy has. Opening the borders towards Croatia, and maybe even further, towards Bosnia, free transport of merchandise, and mostly work force, one mutual currency, all of that is in contradiction with the idea of prosperity in Slovenia as the European state. Unfortunately, a large number of people lives worse than a few years before. When a person with a steady job can’t manage to get a loan to buy a TV, because his income is too low, then what use does he have from „vain“ Europe, which cares less and less about the working man.

Question: There is a partizan’s path around Ljubljana? It is not rare to stumble across a partizan’s monument. But, there is no more Tito’s avenue in Ljubljana. It is now Slovenian and Donau’s( Vienna’s) road. How do you explain that?

Answer:

In the distant year of 1959, I ran a marathon „around occupied Ljubljana“. I think it used to be on the 9th of May. It is the day of celebrating the victory over Fascism in Europe. Now it seems to me like the day of victory over Communism. Many people, including myself, contributed to this change. Unfortunately, it’s all the same in Velenje – we have „Tito’s square“ with the world’s largest monument to him.

Question:Even in Velenje?

Answer:

The monument to Tito still defies those mass execution grounds and graves which there are over a thousand of in my land. At the same time, his – Tito’s – gaze was directed exactly towards Tezno, the place of the largest slaughter in Yugoslavia. We also have here Graška gora. Each year there is a mass gathering of people here, and also partizans in full military uniforms.

Question: Then and now?

Answer:

I’ve lived in Velenje for a full thirty years. When I look around me, something has always changed, but I can’t see any changes in the heart of the town and people. Everything is somehow „lifeless“ and full of disappointement.

Question: Something very personal at the end: when are you coming home? Or are you already there?

Answer:

Once a customs officer asked me: where was I? I was home. Second question: where am I going? Well, I’m going home! That’s how I crossed the border from Međimurje to Slovenia without consequences.

Dragutin – For the homeland ready!

http://safaric-safaric.si/